Interview: “Countries need to make more effort”

DW-Radio: How do you judge the achievements of the Kyoto Protocol so far and is the pace fast enough?

Yvo de Boer: I think the achievements so far are very encouraging, in the sense first of all that we put the Kyoto architecture in place. That I think is probably the most important thing, that we have an internationally agreed mechanism that we can work with. Now, of course, the time for implementation has come. On the whole, I think the group of industrialized countries is doing quite well, but they really will need to make a lot of effort both at home and abroad, in order to meet the targets that they’ve committed to.

What are the prospects for achieving those targets?

Well, I think at the moment the prospects for the group of industrialized countries together of meeting their targets is pretty good. I think some countries individually are having problems, and I think all countries will really have to make a lot of effort both at home and using the flexibility mechanisms to ensure that they do meet their targets.

Germany and the EU have always been great supporters of the Kyoto Protocol but it hasn't been easy for them to keep to target. How do you view their prospects in particular?

Well, the last report I saw from the European Union was about a year old and at that time, their indication was that the EU as a whole will meet its Kyoto targets.

The United States has refused to adopt the Kyoto Protocol and that has always been one of the biggest weaknesses of the system. Do you see any change for the better there?

Well, I don't think the fact that the US has not ratified the protocol is a sign of weakness of the system, but I do think it's important to bring such a large country, such a powerful economy, to keep them in the debate as we move into the future. What the Americans did was decide not to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, but that does not mean that they stopped action on climate change. They have been working to address climate change both in their own country and through international cooperation and my hope is that that active stance can be part of a dialogue on the future as well.

But there’s surely a big difference between what individual states – for instance, California under Arnold Schwarzenegger – are doing and the official policy of the Bush Administration?

Yes, there is indeed. You see, and I think that’s very encouraging, that a number of states in America have decided to move forward on the question of climate change, that they’ve set themselves targets, as California has done. What is also positive I think is that a larger group of states in America have decided for example to see if they can work together on emissions trading.

Rapidly developing nations like India and China play a key role in terms of emissions. Are we going to be able to stop them from making the mistakes which industrialized countries have made in the past in terms of emissions?

Well, I don’t think they want to make the mistakes that industrialized countries have made in the past. I think it’s in the economic and in the health interest of developing countries as well to take action on the question of climate change. So I think that they are looking for ways to do that. Their overriding concern, of course, is poverty eradication and economic growth. The challenge for them -- indeed the challenge for the world community -- is to see how you can address the question of climate change while at the same time working towards those overriding objectives.

It’s not easy to do. If we look at China we can also still see, for instance, a strong dependency on coal.

Both in China and in India, in fact, you see a strong dependency on coal. If you look at the price of other energy carriers, then I think they will continue to use coal in both of those countries. The challenge then is how can you use coal in a clean way, that doesn’t lead to further climate change?

The Kyoto Protocol is not enough. How do you see things developing after 2012?

Ah well, that’s the $99,000 question, of course. Actually, the dialogue on the future has begun in two ways: first of all, you see that countries are discussing what kind of targets industrialized countries should take on after 2012, and at the same time there’s a broader debate going on concerning the future. And I think that's a very encouraging beginning of the debate on what should follow on after 2012.