TRANSCRIPT
Martyna: You are lazy...
Vicky: They actually told you you're lazy?
Martyna: Yes. The school system for ADHD people can be killing.
Vicky: Two ADHD people together, like, talking about ADHD.
Martyna: My psychiatrist said, ‘Well, when you entered my room I already knew,’ and I said ‘So why didn't you tell me?’
[Intro music plays]
Vicky: Hey everyone, I'm Vicky and this is Freaks No More!, the show where we tackle myths about visible and invisible disabilities and neurodivergent brains and tell you how you can be a good ally to people who just experience the world differently.
Today's episode is about something that you probably might have seen pop up on your feed. The hashtag ADHD has over four and a half million posts on TikTok, billions of views. But what exactly is ADHD? So you might have heard things like, oh, everyone nowadays is ADHD or ADHD is just an excuse for being lazy. But which ones of these statements are true and which ones are false?
And for this, to help us distinguish fact over fiction, we have Martyna Masztalerz with us.
Martyna: Very well, thank you.
Vicky: She's a journalist, actually, at our own broadcaster here in DW, and she was diagnosed with ADHD when she was 34 years old, if I'm not mistaken, right?
Martyna: Mhm.
Vicky: ADHD, for those of you who don't know, is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Why I wanted to invite you in the first place is because, in this show, in Freaks No More!, we talk about visible disabilities, but also about invisible disabilities, and ADHD is one of those neurological differences where it's not really obvious in the first place that you might have it. You might need to disclose that to a person. If someone has never heard of ADHD before, how would you describe it?
Martyna: Oh my God, it's a lot . If I could put it in three words, it would be 'it's a lot'. ADHD for me, after the diagnosis, it's a, you know, huge healing. Actually found out that I have ADHD while I found the group on Facebook with ADHD people, and I was reading the posts and everything was like 'Oh my God, it's me, it's me, it's me'.
Vicky: So was that the first time you realized, like when you were on social media browsing posts?
Martyna: Yeah, I guess I believed. Because the first time that I've heard that somebody thinks I may have ADHD was my friend that just took a test. And they called me and said, ‘Hey, I just took an ADHD test. I think you should do it, too’. And I was like, ‘Yeah, yeah...later, later!’
Vicky: Procrastinating your own diagnosis! What was it like for you, the diagnosis process? Was it easy? Was it hard to get a diagnosis?
Martyna: The hardest part was impatience. I was thinking that I'm probably ADHD, but I only needed this little sign of psychiatrist on my papers. And yeah, actually, when I got the diagnosis my psychiatrist said: 'Well, when you entered my room, I already knew.' And I said, like, 'So why didn't you tell me already?'
Vicky: After you get a diagnosis, did it change something about the way you see yourself? The way you see, like, ‘Oh wait, my brain! I finally understand it a bit more!’
Martyna: So, it changed a lot because I finally figured out what was the reason of me having so much trouble during studying, so much trouble getting degrees. It's not so easy for me as for my student colleagues.
Vicky: You can't do it, can't do it the same way as they do it.
Martyna: Exactly. It's harder. I'm waiting for the deadlines all the time. I'm studying at night before the exam and stuff. And I was like 'I'm so lazy'. And everybody around me and my family were like 'You are lazy' and you know.
Vicky: They actually told you you're lazy?
Martyna: Yes exactly! Sorry, Dad. Sorry, Mom. It was actually a quite big success, now, for me, when I think back that I finished university. In preschool, I was the brightest kid in my group. Then in primary school, I could read before all those kids around, and my father was so proud. But then…
Vicky: High school?
Martyna: But then it wasn't so easy.
Vicky: I guess high school with like all the deadlines and exams?
Martyna: I think that the school system for ADHD people can be killing. Sitting 45 minutes on one lesson, having 5 minutes break. I think it's very, very hard.
Vicky: For me to disclose. I also have ADHD so it's kind of like two ADHD people together, talking about ADHD.
But for me as well at work, I need to use this Pomodoro technique. So, you go on YouTube and open one of these videos where it's like '20 minutes work, 5 minutes break, 20 minutes work, 5 minutes break'. Otherwise, I can't. I can't concentrate.
Martyna: You're pretty well organized then!
Vicky: Am I? I don't know, I try to be! Because otherwise I wouldn't do anything.
One of the things that I wanted to ask you is a lot of people consider ADHD a disability and other people say 'Wait, it's not a disability. It's a neurological difference'. By your experience, would you classify it as a disability for you?
Martyna: It depends, like everything. I don't think that I would consider my ADHD as a disability, but there are moments that it can be considered a disability. For example, when I scroll my phone the whole day and I can't move. Like, I literally can't, you know, put away the phone and make my stuff. I'm really lucky because my work is my hyperfocus and I consider myself lucky as many people don't have this luck to have such enjoyable and focus-friendly jobs.
Vicky: For people who don't know 'hyperfocus', maybe we should explain what hyperfocus is?
Martyna: Very good point!
Vicky: For people with ADHD hyperfocus is when your brain drives you to one interest or one task and you cannot get out of it. It's almost like you're obsessed with it.
Martyna: Yes. And listening to the same song like 10 times in a row.
Vicky: And it can also get quite unhealthy in some ways, but for a lot of people, when they experience hyperfocus, they can do a lot of work all at once. But it's kind of like your brain is attached to this one thing. And you can't do anything else before you complete it. So, in this sense, ADHD exhibits in very extreme ways. On the other hand, you can't focus on anything, and you shout at yourself 'please get up and do something'.
Martyna: When you just sit and scroll on your phone, it can be sometimes, the sign of depression. Because this is how I knew that I have ADHD. First, I was diagnosed with depression. Then after two years of medications and therapy, I was like 'I don't know, it doesn't work. I think it's something behind it'. And then I got the ADHD diagnosed.
Vicky: People with ADHD are three times more likely to experience episodes of depression. So I was going to ask you anyway, how you found out and was it through a depressive episode?
Martyna: Yeah.
Vicky: Behind you, you see this colorful wheel. So the for the people who are just listening: Behind us, we have this colorful spinning wheel. Each color represents a different statement. Some statements are things about ADHD that are true, and some things are really big myths. So things that are completely not true.
Martyna: I love it.
Vicky: You spin the wheel.
Martyna: OK 3-2-1.
Vicky: It is blue.
Martyna: People with ADHD easily get addicted.
Vicky: Is that true? Do you think that's true?
Martyna: I think yes, definitely yes.
Vicky: It's actually true. Research has shown people with ADHD have an increased risk for addiction. Probably it's the way that our brains work, probably it's the way that people cope. But apparently substance and alcohol abuse are about 6 times more likely in cases with ADHD compared to those that don't have ADHD.
Martyna: This is crazy.
Vicky: For me personally, I've never had an addictive personality, but I definitely could get very addicted to things and hobbies, and things that I get obsessed with very intensely for months at a time and then I abandon them completely.
Martyna: Yeah, it's probably because ADHD people are dopamine seekers.
Vicky: Or even things like social media.
Martyna: Oh yes!
Vicky: I mean, I don't know how it is for you, but it's so easy to distract yourself. I mean, that's for everyone, I guess, because social media is meant to addict you.
Martyna: Yes.
Vicky: But I guess with people with ADHD, it's even more relevant because you just physically seek dopamine and then it's right there in your hands.
Martyna: You never know what the next reel is about. And you're just scrolling the social media, opening new “gifts” all the time.
Vicky: So, addiction is one thing and then let's see what else the wheel has to say.
Vicky: OK, green!
Martyna: Oh, only little boys can have ADHD.
Vicky: What do you think about that?
Martyna: Yeah, I'm a little boy. Of course, you can see a little boy running around and sometimes overreacting or being aggressive or something. And you think 'Oh, yeah, ADHD'. And you see this little girl in the corner overwhelmed with everything, and you think that she's just weird.
Vicky: The ratio of boys to girls with ADHD is 3:1, so people under 18. And in adulthood, of course, it's 1:1 because distribution of genders is kind of equal. So, women and girls are definitely underdiagnosed as kids. Well, you got diagnosed when you were an adult. But in Poland and you said that's quite hard to do usually.
Martyna: Diagnosis in Poland and medications in Poland, where I'm from, is only before you turn 18. The medications are very, very expensive. For example, right now I'm taking the medication that is, I guess, the best on the Polish market and it costs over 100 euros, in Poland, per month.
Vicky: And insurance doesn't cover it?
Martyna: No, not at all. It covers it only if you're a kid.
Vicky: But let's spin the wheel again, see where it lands.
Vicky: Light turquoise! This one is my favorite! This one is the one that we talked about in the beginning.
Martyna: “People with ADHD are just lazy”.
Vicky: People with ADHD are just lazy. That's usually what people assume, and a lot of people don't understand where it comes from, that inability to do tasks on time or being late or procrastinating...
Martyna: Sometimes I think of myself, that I'm lazy, maybe because my diagnosis was pretty late and I just didn't understand it. Yeah, I still think I am lazy, but I think it's actually, it's not true.
Vicky: Yeah, it takes a lot of time to get that out of your head, like, and not blame yourself.
Martyna: Yes.
Vicky: I also sometimes perceive myself as lazy. And I know that I'm not. That's the thing. I work really hard for things. But sometimes your brain is telling you, like, well, you can't do this thing that all these other people can do.
Martyna: Yeah, this is so easy!
Vicky: So, of course, the conclusion is that you might be a bit lazy, which is not true at all.
Martyna: Yeah. And the good thing to deal with it is, like my therapist used to say, just be good to yourself. When you feel you have no energy for something, do something good for you.
Vicky: Apparently, the region responsible for regulating attention, behavior and emotion, the prefrontal cortex in the brain, tends to be a bit smaller in ADHD brains. And of course, what we know is dopamine. So dopamine regulation is off in ADHD brains. And there seems to be less dopamine in general available in the brain. So, literally, there is a physical difference in the brain of people with ADHD that is not just a behavioral thing, it's a physical, neurological thing.
Martyna: Yeah. Blaming yourself is the worst thing that you can do.
Vicky: When you were growing up, did your parents ever guess or suggest 'Wait, my kid might have ADHD'? Was there even awareness that there is something like ADHD?
Martyna: No, it was only this little boy in the class having ADHD. And yeah, no way. They had no idea. We just started to talk about it maybe four or five years ago in Poland. And very quickly Polish people went from the point that 'oh, ADHD exists' to the point 'we have over-diagnosed ADHD in Poland'. No, we are still under-diagnosed. When you see the numbers and statistics and the research.
Vicky: And in Bulgaria, where I'm from, it's something similar. There is now a little bit more awareness of what ADHD is, but, oh my God, even five years ago? No way. I learned almost everything about ADHD through social media. And not through Bulgarian social media. It was all English! English content.
Martyna: Yeah, English content!
Vicky: That's where we got our info about ADHD. And a lot of older people are, like, well, skeptical. 'Why would you need a diagnosis? Does it really require medication? Like, why would you get this medication? You're OK. You're doing OK.’
Martyna: Mental health doesn't exist in our countries, I guess, like seriously!
Vicky: Mental health is on a very... It does exist, and a lot of people are doing a good job, I guess, therapists are doing a good job and raising more awareness. But still, the level of education is much different than it is here in Germany, for example.
Is there anything as an advice you want to tell people that are seeking out a diagnosis now for ADHD? Or think that they might have ADHD?
Martyna: Do it for yourself. Check it! I was like going from the point that I really need to know what's going on with me, because if it's not depression itself, what is behind it? A few years ago, I went to the psychiatrist and she said, it was like maybe 10 years ago, she said 'no, that's just your temper'.
Vicky: 'Just how you are'.
Martyna: Yeah. And it's like, seriously, I could known 10 years ago, if you could make a right diagnosis for me.
Vicky: In the past, ADHD was a completely different thing. Probably not many people were aware that it even existed. And I actually have a surprise for you, maybe. We have a time machine in the studio! It's this red button right here.
Martyna: I'm scared!
Vicky: After we press this big red button, we're going to go back in time and then we're going to figure out how ADHD existed in the past? How was it perceived in the past, and how did it evolve? So, whenever you're ready, you're going to press it, together. We're going to travel together. Are you ready? OK.
Martyna:
Are you ready?
Vicky: I am ready. Alright, 3-2-1.
Vicky: 'An over balance of fire over water'. This is where ADHD character traits originated from, at least according to Greek philosopher and physician Hippocrates back in 493 BC. The remedy? A bland diet with fish and lots of water.
ADHD as a disease of attention first appeared in 1798 in a book written by physician Sir Alexander Crichton. The remedy? Cold baths, horseback riding, or total isolation from any stimuli, if necessary, in darkness.
In 1902, the British pediatrician Sir George Frederic Still noticed symptoms like aggression and problems with concentration in some children, mostly boys.
After an epidemic of encephalitis lethargica swept across the globe in the 1920s, many affected children show this exact set of symptoms. Although today we know that ADHD and post encephalitic behavior are two different things, the findings increase the rate of interest in ADHD.
In the fifties the FDA approved Ritalin in the US, which turned out to be a popular ADHD drug. And finally ADHD was formally recognized in the 1960s by the American Psychiatric Association. Its initial name was Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood.
In 1987, this became what we now know today as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, or ADHD.
[Music plays]
Vicky: So we're back in the present.
Martyna: Good! Good times.
Vicky: After this little trip. For me, the most surprising thing was the recommendation to do horseback riding.
Martyna: I love it.
Vicky: Or sit in total darkness, I guess...
Martyna: Fish diet. I like it.
Vicky: I guess that would help in some ways, like sitting in total darkness for a few hours of meditation wise...
Martyna: But it's torture.
Vicky: It is kind of... for you?
Martyna: I would say.
Vicky: I would totally sit in a room for a few hours in darkness and quiet, I think.
Martyna: I have a totally different ADHD maybe.
Vicky: Maybe! I once meditated for a whole day, eight hours from the morning till the evening.
Martyna: Eight hours! Oh my God!
Vicky: It's one of the reasons why I really try to seek out meditation to help with my ADHD symptoms, but I guess we're very different in that sense.
Martyna: I remember the first time I took ADHD medications, and it was actually a miracle. Because I could walk home and I wasn't distracted, like scrolling on the phone or talking on the phone. I took this little walk and my head was quiet.
Vicky: So, what kind of things help you manage your symptoms? Obviously medication is one thing, but you do use therapy or like, let’s say, walks in nature? What kind of routines help you?
Martyna: I'm a relationship person. It really helps when you are talking to your partner, you are talking about your symptoms, you are trying to understand what's going on with you right now. Because if I'm by myself, I probably can go on this automatic way, you know? I just go straight, doing my stuff and not thinking what's inside of me. And then the partner noticed that you're nervous or you are somewhere in outer space and then you think 'Yeah, you're right!’ Maybe because something triggered me.
Vicky: Your girlfriend is quite understanding.
Martyna: Yes, she is. She could be a little bit angry with me, procrastinating all the time and stuff. Then when I got the diagnosis, it made life easier for both of us.
Vicky: What's the best way for you personally that someone can support you?
Martyna: So, if it comes to a partner, it's, like, being understanding, being delicate, not pushing me to stuff, not telling me 10 times, 'You should do that now. You should do that now.' When you say something 10 times, I'm getting angry and I'm not going to do it probably. But when you tell me that 'I would feel better if you could do it in some time', I will probably put away the phone and scrolling in two minutes and go and make it for you.
Vicky: So gentle language?
Martyna: Yes, gentle language. And the 'I'-language, not 'you'-language. And if it comes to work, I really need a routine, I really need time, a deadline.
Vicky: You know, there is one survey that I recently read about among media professionals, people that work in our sector and media. So many of them identify as ADHD, which makes so much sense when you think about it, that people with ADHD would seek this job, journalism, because it's so fast-paced, you have deadlines. It's never boring.
Martyna: Never.
Vicky: I mean, now, today I'm talking to you, tomorrow I'm doing something completely different. I'm writing a script for something else. I'm filming a documentary. So, you're always doing something different.
Vicky: I was wondering if you have an advice, maybe, to parents that might be raising a kid with ADHD.
Martyna: First of all, I would say: 'Go diagnose yourself' because it may be genetic.
Vicky: It is true. Actually. ADHD can be highly genetic.
Martyna: Yeah. So, when I look at my parents, they can say now as well they probably both have ADHD.
Vicky: So, parents, a word of advice: Be supportive to your kids.
Martyna: Yes!
Vicky: And maybe get diagnosed as well , if your kid has ADHD. Maybe you also check if you might have ADHD yourself.
Thank you so much for the lovely conversation, Martyna.
Martyna: Thank you so much!
Vicky: What did you learn about ADHD in this episode and was there anything surprising? Let us know in the comments or write us an email if you have any questions on freaks@dw.com. And if you're tuning into the audio version of this podcast, also check us out on YouTube. I promise it's really colorful. Bye from me and remember: Be kind, be patient, and be understanding!