In this special edition of Conflict Zone we are presenting
the highlights of a high-level panel on the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict which took place at this year’s Munich Security Conference.
Hello everyone, and a very warm welcome to
"Peace in Pieces: The Future of Israeli-Palestinian Relations
Town Hall ".
This is a special edition of Conflict Zone
coming to you from the Munich Security Conference.
Our conversation will begin with the Palestinian Prime Minister.
Thank you very much for your time this morning.
And then we will open up to a high level panel who will be joining
us here on the stage.
Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh.
Thank you so much for joining us on Conflict Zone here from
the Munich Security Conference.
Thank you for having me.
More than 28,000 have been killed in Gaza, more than 11,000
of them children, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
Isn't it time for Hamas, which many countries around the world
consider to be a terrorist organization, to release
the remaining hostages and try and bring an end to this conflict?
By all means, all our eyes are focused on the
sufferings of the Palestinians, both in Gaza Strip and in the West Bank,
and what is immediately needed is a ceasefire.
And what is more needed is to allow international aid to get into Gaza,
not only one through one single entry,
but through all the entries that are there.
As you rightly said, not only 28,000 Palestinians have
been killed, but also 70,000 Palestinians have been injured.
281,000 Palestinian homes have been destroyed between partial
destruction and complete destruction.
But also 1.7 million Palestinians have been pushed out of their homes
into one single geography that's called the Rafah area.
And now the Israeli army is intending to incursion into Rafah.
So all what we need now is an immediate ceasefire and allow
international aid to get into Gaza.
Let's talk a little bit more about
those prospects, because the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas,
called on Hamas this week to complete a deal quickly.
And I'm quoting here "to spare the Palestinian people suffering."
Do you think that Hamas cares what Abbas and the PA has to say?
Do you think they're listening?
Our president is the president of all the
Palestinians, of course.
And we do care for our people, and we would like to see an end
to these atrocities.
We would like to see the release of all the hostages,
and we would like to see a deal that is there in the making as
soon as possible, because every single day that is delayed,
it means more killings, it means more sufferings,
and it means more disaster for the people.
All eyes are on Rafah right now, as you've highlighted.
There's been months of speculation that the Israeli invasion of Gaza
could end with millions being pushed into Egypt.
The latest reports are saying that Egypt is actually
building a walled enclosure along the border.
We heard from the Egyptian foreign minister yesterday.
He said that they are preparing safe areas for refugees.
Do you know what's going on there, or are they talking with you or are
they coordinating with you?
Yes.
First of all, Egypt is not going to allow anybody
to cross the borders.
Second, you are right that...
Are you sure about that?
Is that going to hold?
It looks like they're preparing something.
Yes, we are sure about that.
Egypt is not going to allow Palestinians to enter into
the Egyptian territory.
We don't want Palestinians to move from Gaza into
Egypt, even though there is an Israeli program to really push
Palestinians out of Gaza in an attempt to rehabilitate
Palestinian refugees into other areas.
This is not something that is new.
Where are these people to go?
Because they are planning an offensive on Rafah.
Or are you optimistic that that won't happen?
People should be allowed to go back to their
homes in the north of Gaza.
People should be allowed to go back to their homes in the
middle of Gaza.
The only way should not be out of Gaza into Egypt.
Now what Israel is doing is what one can call a cattle shoot exercise,
pushing everybody into the Rafah crossing.
That should not be allowed.
I know, and we know that it has been an
Israeli program to push people out of Gaza.
We and the Egyptians have been working hard not
to allow this to happen.
The Israelis would, of course, dispute that.
The Israelis would dispute that.
Well, the Israelis can say anything.
But also the reality speaks for itself.
We know that this has been the Israeli program to push
people out of Gaza.
So the most important thing for us, the international community,
is to push the Israelis to allow people to go back to their homes.
This is the only thing that can happen.
Not only that, but also to stop immediately the atrocities.
Netanyahu has achieved nothing until now.
He achieved one thing.
He killed 28,000 people, he injured 70,000 people,
and he destroyed 281,000 housing units.
This is the only thing that Israel has achieved
in Gaza until the single minute.
Israel, for its part, says that it wants to
avoid another October 7th, while Hamas has slaughtered
some 1,200 people on October 7th.
There's evidence of sexual violence, rape, mutilation.
I mean, do you really think that they would stop until they feel
that the threat is over, that they've regained some sort of
sense of security?.
The history of Palestine did not
start on October 7th.
The Palestinian sufferings started in 1948.
And this cycle of violence...
Let's talk about the now, we know the history.
There's two different versions of it.
Let's talk about the now and what happens going forward.
You are asking about now, yes?
My duty is to make it clear to the audience so that the people
understand the macro picture, not only the little tiny micro.
Even though the situation in October 7th has been disaster,
catastrophic for everybody.
And don't — we don't accept the fact that
civilians have been killed.
This is something that we totally do not accept.
But, we should not allow the cycle of violence every now and
then to repeat itself.
The Palestinian issue has to be settled, and now it is the time
that we find solutions.
It is not the town— the time that we speak about processes.
We are sick of the processes.
Now we have to go from the floor to the ceiling and
from the ceiling to the floor, i.e. no more processes.
We need a recognition of a state of Palestine and then we
go into details.
So the history of the Palestinian catastrophe did
not start October 7th.
The least— the last cycle of violence has started October 7th.
Yes.
But before that, '67, 1982, all these sort of things,
we need to put an end to this Palestinian suffering.
So then let's move then, from the prospects for a ceasefire
now to the prospects for a two-state solution.
The Palestinian Authority, your organization, you're seen as
weak and having legitimacy issues.
Hamas is considered a terrorist organization.
Just carried out the worst attack on Israel in its history.
Israel, for its part, has its most right-wing
government in history, with a prime minister who is opposed
to a two-state solution quite vehemently.
Are you in a position to get a deal done?
How can you— how can you tap into the
international momentum when you have those conditions among the parties?
Let me just reflect on the points that
you mentioned one by one.
First of all, you are right that we are in a weak position.
The Israeli army incursions into our cities and into our refugee
camps and our villages, and the Israeli army has reoccupied
every single part of Palestine, one.
Second, the Israeli government has deducted substantial amount
of our money.
So we have not been able to pay salaries for the last three months.
So not only that, 700 checkpoints have been imposed in
the West Bank in addition to what is happening in Gaza as well.
So therefore, when we speak about a weak situation in Palestine,
you are 100% right.
The Israeli army is not allowing us to function
because we are under occupation.
I don't want to...
Wait a minute.
Wait, let me finish because you asked me a question.
So let me answer you.
The other important issue is the two states.
The biggest problem today is that the Israelis used to say about us,
"they don't have a partner".
Now, I can easily claim back to your question that we don't have a partner
in Israel, our president, all of us have been extending our
hands for the Israel to sit down and settle this issue.
Arab states, Israel's allies, they want
and I'm quoting here, "a revamped and revitalized
Palestinian Authority " that can play a role in post-war Gaza.
Abbas says that the PA is ready to take
responsibility for Gaza immediately after the war.
I mean, Palestinians are tremendously dissatisfied with the PA.
We've seen the protests in Ramallah.
90% of Palestinians...
The protests were against the Israeli occupation.
90% of Palestinians want Abbas gone 90%, 90%.
Wait a minute.
When, does he need to go?
Does he need to go quickly?
No, wait a minute.
First of all... How can you represent the Pal.... say
that you represent the Palestinian people when 90% want
your president out?
You want to ask me and wait for an answer or
you want to continue talking.
Yes, please.
Please.
So wait a minute.
First of all, we are very aware of the fact that we need elections.
And our president issued a presidential decree calling for
elections on the 22nd of May 2021, when Israel did not allow us to have
elections in Jerusalem.
So, we were caught between the hammer and the hard rock.
Shall we have elections without Jerusalem,
or shall we wait until the circumstances allow one?
The other important issue I did like, I do like the term revitalization of
the Palestinian Authority that President Biden spoke about.
And when I googled it, I realized that it means bring to life.
So for us, the revitalization of the Palestinian Authority,
it means one thing for me: allow us to function.
This is not my question, I have to say, this is not my
question Mr. Prime Minister, you've announced reforms.
Yes, but let me finish.
When are they going to happen and on what sort of timeframe?
Because you have promised them before.
Correct.
When are they going to happen?
Correct.
Netanyahu's war is going to continue until the end of the year.
Today in Gaza, we have 50,000 Palestinian civil
servants who are there, of whom 19,000 Palestinian policemen.
We provide for Gaza $140 million every month.
That's $1.7 billion dollars every year.
That's 35% of our budget.
Is Abbas going to appoint a deputy who has power,
who has authority?
This is what, if if you can't hold elections, is he
going to appoint a deputy?
Look, the issue is not about...
Is he going to allow a caretaker as we've been hearing
many international parties are calling for.
The Palestinian Basic Law does not allow
the president to have a deputy.
Okay.
The Pales....
We are people who are stick to the law...
But it allows him to serve 19 years into a four-year term.
No, no, no no.
We, all what we want is simply to have elections
when elections are possible.
We cannot have elections for part of Palestine without
elections for every Palestinian.
Now, let's not miss the point.
The issue of Palestinian reform is something that we initiated.
I myself presented it to the international community.
And just to answer your previous question, we
are implementing it step by step, in full coordination with the
international community and with full partnership with Germany,
with the United States, with Europe and with others.
We have the institutions.
We have the capabilities.
We have everything.
Our serious problem is that we are under occupation and our
people, they suffer.
And your audience should be aware of the fact that the Palestinians are
under Israeli military occupation, and we need this occupation to end.
It's not about reform.
It's not about anything.
It's about Palestinians.
They are looking for one thing that's end
of occupation and establish a sovereign, viable,
contiguous state of Palestine side by side, the state of Israel.
That's what we want.
We have limited time.
And there's one more aspect that we need to get to here,
because you have said that, and I'm going to quote you here,
"we should realize that Hamas is an integral part of the Palestinian
political mosaic ".
You've called on them to join the PLO's political program.
Where do you see Hamas's role?
And do you worry that you risk alienating
international partners who consider it to be a terrorist organization?
Israelis also, who are deeply traumatized by the
October 7th attacks?
We all know that Netanyahu tried to buy quietness
for money, and therefore he had to deal with Hamas.
And also for us, of course, Hamas is an integral part
of the Palestinian political arena.
But in order for Hamas to be a member of the PLO, there are
certain prerequisites that Hamas has to accept the political platform of
the PLO, that we have an understanding on issues that has
to do with resistance, and that we are calling for popular
resistance and not anything else.
And therefore, if Hamas accepts and we have been in dialogue with
Hamas before October 7th in El Alamein...
Are you speaking with them directly right now?
No. Are conversations happening?
Not now.
But Russia ...
So you still speak to intermediaries?
Russia has invited all Palestinian factions
who will be meeting on the 26th of this month in Moscow,
and they have invited all Palestinian factions.
We will see if Hamas is ready to come to ground with us.
We are ready to engage.
If Hamas is not going to come to ground with us,
that's a different story.
But we need a Palestinian unity under any circumstances.
But I mean, we're talking about Hamas here.
This is, you know, an organization.
It has a history of undermining peace through violence.
They reject the Oslo Accords.
They're committed to armed resistance against Zionism.
I mean, look at the brutality of October 7th,
where they slaughtered more than a thousand people, took
hundreds of hostages, the youngest being nine months old.
Evidence of sexual violence, rape, mutilation.
Does Hamas really deserve another chance?
Look.
As I told you, one should not continue focusing on October 7th.
They've been no friend of yours either.
I told you at the very beginning that no way,
that no way we accept.
No way we accept any killing of any civilian, innocent people.
This is something that we should put behind ourselves.
Under any circumstances that we need to have a situation in which
Palestinians are united.
But again, on our political agenda...
Is the PA so weak that Hamas is the only option?
We are not going to go, we are not going
to go to their ground.
We are not going to go to their ground.
We want them to come to our ground.
Our ground is very clear.
Two states on the borders of '67, through peaceful means,
we have been engaged in negotiations for 33 years.
Unfortunately, negotiations did not materialise in and into the conflict.
We are now saying we need a different, serious paradigm shift
from talks into a resolution that United States, Europe does recognize
the State of Palestine on the borders of '67,
and Palestine will be admitted as an independent sovereign state,
as a member of the United Nations.
Even before the war in Gaza and October 7th, the vast majority
of Palestinians said that armed struggle is the most
effective means of ending the Israeli occupation.
We've been talking a lot about diplomacy here.
We're here at the Munich Security Conference.
But this sentiment among Palestinians, does it worry you?
Palestinians, they want a solution.
We tried armed struggle from 1965...
They're frustrated.
They are very frustrated, of course.
Not only frustrated, Palestinians are angry.
Palestinians are frustrated.
Palestinians are starving.
There are 9,000 Palestinians are in prisons.
There are thousands of martyr families.
Israel has arrested 6,000 Palestinians since October 7th
until today.
Today we have 9,000 Palestinians in
Israeli prisons, humiliated under impossible conditions.
So therefore, they're not only frustrated, they're frustrated.
They are angry.
The Palestinians, they need end of occupation.
And the Palestinians, they need to live free.
This is what, where you end the frustration,
you end anger, you end, you end violence.
That is how you end the conflict by giving people their rights —
it's not by looking at cosmetic things.
We need to look at the roots of the issue,
not only at the symptoms of the issue.
That is where, and the roots of the problem for the
Palestinians is end of occupation.
That is the name of the game.
Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh,
thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for joining us on Conflict Zone here from
the Munich Security Conference.
We're going to continue our conversation now with our panel.
We are joined by Tzipi Livni, former foreign minister of Israel.
Thank you for your time.
Ayman Safadi is going to be joining us in just a moment,
the foreign minister of Jordan, we are joined by
José Manuel Abalos Bueno, foreign minister of Spain,
and Mélanie Joly, foreign minister of Canada.
Welcome to all of you.
Thank you for your time, and thank you.
As we wait for the Jordanian foreign minister to
join us: Tzipi Livni, I'd just like to get a very
brief comment from you at the beginning.
Will Israel launch an offensive in Rafah?
I think that if our security needs are,
and I do support it, to dismantle Hamas from its military
infrastructure and hopefully to replace Hamas with a more legitimate
and pragmatic regime, the Israeli army will take
the necessary step, including taking in consideration
international humanitarian law, as we need to.
The absurd is that we called Palestinians to leave their homes not
in order to expel them, but in order to save their lives
because they are being kept as human shields by Hamas,
and therefore the situation is complicated.
Yes, there are Palestinians that are suffering there.
But the real question is how all of us can lead to a better future and
not end this war in Gaza as another round.
Because I was a minister in the Israeli security cabinet in
the last rounds of operations in Gaza, one we thought
that deterrence would be enough, the second we thought that any
understanding with Hamas — I didn't support it because I think
that Hamas would be delegitimized — but I would advise all of us to do
what we decided on the first round of negotiations with the Palestinians,
that it's not about blame game or history,
but about finding a solution.
The only way to achieve peace is by an understanding that the choices
be not, is not between Israelis and Palestinians,
but between those that want and are willing to take
also, of course, political risks and other to achieve
peace on both sides and just entering to a blame game or
calling the international community, give us a state.
This is not helpful.
Ayman Safadi, I'd like to get your response first of all,
to what we have heard.
Mr. Foreign Minister, by the way, welcome and thank you for joining us.
You know, we've been discussing all eyes right now,
really being on Rafah.
Jordan and Egypt have been quite clear that they will not accept any
forcible transfer of Palestinians.
Egypt appears to be building an enclosure on its border.
The foreign minister of Egypt addressed this yesterday.
Do you think that your stance can still hold
strong on this, given the dire humanitarian situation in
Gaza and the talk of a military operation extending there?
Well, I mean, we should not be responsible
for cleaning Israel's mess.
And before I address that, we got to frame things in
the right perspective.
What we see in Gaza is, is a devastating war.
Mass murder, destruction of the livelihood of 2 million people,
pushing people to the abyss, destroy hospitals, killing
journalists, killing medics, killing humanitarian workers.
And we've got to frame things in the right, in the right context.
The root cause of all of this is occupation that has had
no horizons of ending.
That's being consolidated day and day out.
Look at the number of settlements in terms of the growth
that we've seen over the past few years.
Look at the situation before October 7th.
What did we have before October 7th?
We had a complete closure of political horizons.
We had a government that that includes radical racist
ministers who openly call for the killing of Palestinians.
They call them human animals.
They don't respect their rights.
And we had a process in which this Israeli government tried to sell
the fallacy that it can jump over the Palestinian issue to have
regional peace and ignore the Palestinians as if they do not exist.
This current Israeli prime minister was on the record saying
that his mission is to suffocate the Palestinian people's
aspiration for statehood.
October 7th, we all condemned the killing of Israeli civilians.
On October 7th all the Arab countries did that.
But I have yet to hear...
How should Israel have responded to that?
I have to yet hear one Israeli official
condemning the killing of 30,000 people in Gaza.
75% of them are women and children.
We are a country that made peace with Israel 30 years ago, but we made
peace within the context of a broader peace that should allow
for regional conditions that will ensure safety, security,
dignity for all people, for Israelis and Palestinians.
But Israel cannot have security unless Palestinians have security.
We all cannot have peace unless the Palestinian people have their
legitimate rights to statehood and freedom and dignity fulfilled.
This seems to have been pushed under
tons of layers of ignorance and acting as if Palestinians did not exist.
So let's frame things right.
We have a conflict.
The root cause of conflict is an occupation that is
a violation of every human rights that exists.
There was no horizons for this occupation to end,
and now we're just looking at things as if the only problem is
that there is something called Hamas.
No, the only problem is that there is an occupation that has to end.
We in the Arab world since 2002, have said that we're willing to have
full, normal ties with Israel in return for ending the occupation
and the realization of a Palestinian state.
Israel did not even consider that.
And this is the question that we have.
On the issue of displacement it's an absolute no.
We will not allow for the displacement of another
thousands of Palestinians.
Is that also what your Egyptian counterparts are saying?
Yes.
I think Jordan and Egypt have been...?
Even despite the building of the enclosure?
About that displacement is not acceptable.
It's a violation of international law.
It's a war crime.
But beyond that, it will solve nothing.
It will just set the stage for further conflict.
One last sentence, whoever wants peace, we cannot just keep speaking
in the macro.
The path to peace is known.
The two-state solution, the realization of a Palestinian
state that can live in peace and security with Israel.
Every other talk about political horizon or about peace is,
I'm sorry, it's ignoring the issue, and it's assuming that you
can continue to control the lives of 5 million people and
deny them every human rights and say, I want peace.
How's that possible?
I'd like to turn to the Spanish foreign minister right
now and get the EU's and the Spanish views here,
because you are among the EU countries most critical of the rising
death toll in Gaza and Israel's occupation there,
operation there, excuse me.
You have paused arms sales, we understand.
How do you see the prospects for de-escalation and
ending the conflict?
Everything that we are doing
and saying aims at de-escalation.
This escalation of violence will lead nowhere.
I don't see any political vision behind all this violence.
And there is a real risk of a spillover beyond Gaza.
We see what's going on in the West Bank.
We are very, very worried for a very fragile already Lebanon.
So basically, I think we all know what is needed to get
peace and security for both the Palestinian people and
the Israeli people.
We take very seriously the security concerns of Israel.
When we call for a permanent ceasefire,
when we call for the immediate entrance
of humanitarian aid, which is absolutely needed in Gaza,
given the catastrophic humanitarian situation where we call
for the immediate release of hostages, all those things are and
go in the benefit of both of them, the Palestinians and the Israelis.
Okay, Mélanie Joly, I'd like to turn to you,
Foreign Minister of Canada, and perhaps you can also give us
the international perspective, as well as maybe the North American
perspective as well.
How much influence do you see the international community
have, having on bringing an end to this conflict?
What we need now is a hostage deal.
We need that because that's the only way that we can get humanitarian
support, up to 500 trucks a day from Karem Salem and Rafah.
And from there there will be a momentum to get to
a sustainable ceasefire.
Violence must stop.
I think we all agree on that.
And when we had the last truce in November, we saw
that things calmed down.
The pressure in all our country calmed down.
I must say, in Canada, the politics of this is extremely difficult.
And that's creating tensions, more anti-Semitism, more Islamophobia.
It's there's lots of tensions in our community.
So what we want is a hostage deal, it's a humanitarian aid.
This will then permit the work on a grand bargain, which is
for too long we've been thinking, and particularly the left, center
left, which I'm from, we believe in a two-state solution.
And wait, wait, wait, let me just finish and I'll get to.
So we believe in a two-state solution.
And then the right was much more into normalization of
relationship with Israel.
Let's, you know, let's make sure that there's
a security apparatus for the region.
But the reality, Sarah, right now is we have an opportunity
to bring long-lasting peace to the region.
Why?
Because we have to put the two together.
There will be no security for the Arab world and
for Israel if there's no normalization and deal
with Saudi Arabia and a two-state solution.
What more pressure can the international community, though,
bring to bear?
And I'd just like to acknowledge the EU foreign policy
chief is sitting in the front row here.
Yeah, Borrell is in my ear right now.
And I'm going to quote you, Josep Borrell, if you don't mind,
because you said this in the past week.
You made this thinly veiled call on the United States to cut arm
supplies to Israel due to the high civilian casualties in the war.
You said: "If you believe that too many people
are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms in
order to prevent so many people from being killed ".
So is there a point there?
There's two things.
We believe in the right of Israel to exist.
That's fundamental.
It must be able to exist in peace and security.
We also have a foreign policy all about human security.
We're Canada, that's what we believe in.
And the protection of civilians has been at the core of
everything we've been doing.
So of course, right now this is difficult balance.
And on Rafah, we were absolutely clear this is
unacceptable because Palestinians have nowhere to go.
You have been in the center of negotiations, Tzipi Livni.
You support a two-state solution.
You're also I mean, you're in Israel.
You see the trauma of October 7th and the population is traumatized.
There is no appetite right now for a two-state solution,
or at least very little appetite.
And so, you know, and this is our final round of
questions, by the way.
So I just like everybody to perhaps have a last little final word here
before we open it up to questions from everybody else.
You said that it will be difficult to convince
Israelis to support peace, to support a two-state solution.
Do you see any hope?
Yes, I see hope.
It is true that Israel is under trauma.
All of us, also personally.
This kind of horrors you mentioned.
And thank you for that.
The hostages, they need to be released because they were taken.
These are crimes against humanity.
But speaking about two states or future, there is
also a need to understand that also on the Palestinian side,
there are those supporting the idea of two states for two peoples.
We didn't reach an agreement, but they represent aspiration,
legitimate aspiration of the Palestinians for a state.
Hamas does not.
Hamas does not accept the right of Israel to exist,
and therefore those that are speaking now about eternal peace with Hamas,
they don't understand the nature.
It's not just a terrorist organization for
some freedom fighters.
Gaza Strip could have been free if they had renounced violence.
We left Gaza.
We didn't want to be there.
We don't want to control the Palestinian life.
I know that there are negotiations now, the US,
the Saudis, hopefully Jordan and Egypt, the PA.
If this— and this is something can get a grip on, there's
a need for us also in human rights to understand
that the outcome of this can be secure.
And I'm speaking about those supporters of two states,
not all the Israeli support it, or not all parts of this government.
But yes, for us, we need to understand that it brings security.
That is, we have a new security structure in the region
with the Saudis, with Jordan, with others.
And by having that and there are change on realities also on Gaza.
And this hopefully can make a change.
Ayman Safadi, I'd like to ask you, first of all,
for your response.
Second of all, can you take us into some of these
negotiation rooms and tell us, um, particularly what regional players
might be willing to provide to get a deal done?
What is potentially on the table to move not only from
a cease fire, but maybe also to a two-state
solution, possibly also to another normalization agreement with
Saudi Arabia and Israel in the region, for example.
Thank you Sarah.
I mean, first of all, I think the key thing is that this
war has to end.
This murder has to end.
This.
This, this, this, these war crimes have to end.
That's the number one.
That's the bottom line.
And what happens after?
I'll come to that.
But for now, nothing can justify the continuation
of the destruction of the livelihood of 2 million people.
Nothing can justify attacking hospitals.
Nothing can justify killing 12,000 children.
Nothing can justify making 17,000 children in Gaza orphaned.
This is unacceptable by any standard.
Israel has crossed every moral, humanitarian, legal law
that there exists.
That's number one.
Number two, again, we've got to frame things right.
It is unacceptable again, to keep beating around the bush and
not to recognize that the problem is with Israeli politics,
that Israel does not want to recognize the right of the
Palestinian people to exist.
Not only are they saying that, but they're doing everything that
will render the two-state solution unviable and in fact,
speak to that.
What's on the table from regional players?
I'll tell you that.
What's on the table is a full peace.
That is the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, and it's still on the table.
Full normal ties, full peace, full acceptance.
But that cannot happen without ending the occupation and giving the
Palestinians their rights.
We cannot solve the conflict unless we realize we
recognize that there are 5 million Palestinians under
occupation whose lives are totally hostage.
Talk about Gaza now and the hostage deal.
Israel is taking 2 million Palestinians hostage in Gaza.
And I'm sorry, Israel did not end its occupation of Gaza.
Legally.
Gaza was still occupied.
We say, okay, Israel get out of Gaza.
But they besieged their borders.
They besieged their skies.
They denied the entry of any, anything into Gaza without,
without the permission of Israel.
And they say, we freed Gaza.
Gaza was an open prison even before October 7th.
Gaza was besieged.
Again for the hostage deal, by the way, I'm sure you heard the
Qatari prime minister, whoever wants a deal does not walk
away from negotiations.
Israel walked away from negotiations.I
personally believe that this current Israeli government does
not want a hostage deal, does not want this war to end.
It wants to continue with this war.
I’d like verybody's final thoughts,
we'll begin with Mélanie Jolie.
Yes.
And again, if we can all keep it concise and...
I think that this, um, this conflict has had proportions
that are unacceptable.
But I really believe, Sarah, and having spent so much time with
Ayman, with Faisal from Saudi Arabia, with Tony Blinken,
there is way more people agreeing at the international level on what needs
to be done and way more interest in putting pressure.
The problem we have is we don't necessarily have dancing
partners right now, and I think that that is why the most
preoccupying thing right now, which would allow the right political
momentum, is a hostage deal and humanitarian aid.
I really think that we need to put pressure on Netanyahu.
We need to do the difference between Israel and the Netanyahu
government as well.
We need to make sure also that we have allies in
Israel to put pressure, also on the Italian government.
And, and that's his job.
And we will support Ayman and Jordan and the king and,
and all the Arab states.
We need a reformed PA, because right now, Hamas has too much legitimacy in
the eyes of Palestinians that are too much suffering right now.
So we need to be able to help them, to offer
them the people, a new generation of young Palestinian leaders that
will be at the table to create this state.
Mr. Foreign Minister, your final thoughts?
It's very clear that the hope of the
Palestinian people and the security of the Israeli people
are completely interlink, and we cannot escape to that.
And the hope of the Palestinian people has a name,
a Palestinian state, a realistic Palestinian state.
And that means Gaza and the West Bank and the one single
Palestinian Authority connected by a corridor with an exit to the sea
and with its capital in East Jerusalem.
And what we have to do is to help that.
So for today, for today is the immediate release of
hostages and the permanent ceasefire, but for tomorrow, not for after
tomorrow, for tomorrow is the Palestinian state.
It's the only way in which both of them will have peace, security and
the whole Middle East stability.
I'm not asking the world to turn a blind eye to what, to what Israel is doing in Gaza,
but judge us in according to your own moral and legal justice and legal system,
because the loss of life for Israeli and Palestinian.
I mean, it's the same.
We are not speaking about the nature of the grief.
It's it's it's awful.
But here you have those that target civilian deliberately
targets killed, raped.
This is who they are.
Israel is a democracy.
We are trying to avoid civilian casualties.
I was in the Israeli cabinet.
I know how it works.
So I'm not saying that you cannot ask questions or get
the answers, but to make this comparison, it's immoral.
You cannot compare these terrorists that are looking for children to
kill, to an army that tries to avoid civil casualties.
And to your question about whether or not all the Israelis are the same,
not all the Palestinians are the same.
You can find in Israel those supporting peace,
supporting the idea of two states and those that are completely against it,
as you know.
And they some believe in greater Palestine between the river
to the sea.
Same in Israel, those believing in Greater Israel,
between the river to the sea.
I hope, and this is the only hope for Israelis and Palestinians alike
to find on both sides the leadership that understands that the best option
for their own people is to find the way forward and to acknowledge
the legitimate rights of the other side.
And therefore, I'm using not just the word of two states,
but two states for two peoples.
That gives an answer to national aspiration of different peoples.
I negotiated peace during these negotiations.
On the other side, the representatives of the PLO uh,
Fatah, uh, accepted the existence of the state of Israel.
We didn't reach understandings on borders and other things.
But I would like to say, since it was asked about so about mistakes.
In 2014, there was on the table an American paper.
I think it was just and fair to the Palestinians as well,
and unfortunately no answer was given.
So sometimes the choice between 0 or 100% of what you want
gives you a zero.
And I hope that both sides would understand
the nature of compromises that are needed.
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister.
Thank you.
Look.
First of all, Palestinians have rights and we cannot just keep
talking about Palestinians having hopes and aspirations.
They have rights.
Those rights are embedded in international law.
Those rights are embedded in humanitarian law.
The rights of the Palestinians to exist in their own state,
independent sovereign on June 4th, 1967 lines with East Jerusalem as
capital is something that that is the only way to move forward.
And it's not slogans, it's reality.
And if we want to talk about what existed and what
did not exist in the past, I think we'll be having
a different conversation.
Let's look at the future.
The future that we seek in the Arab world is a future of
peace for Palestinians, for Israelis, for everybody.
To have that Israel's legitamate concerns for security and
others should be addressed.
The Palestinians right to freedom and statehood must be addressed as well.
That's number one.
Number two, we cannot continue to talk about
what's happening in Gaza, as if it's something that you could
just look at and glance at and move over.
No.
There is, there's a catastrophe happening in Gaza.
Innocents are being killed.
Israeli army is killing children in Gaza.
It's killing women and children in Gaza, is destroying
hospitals in Gaza, destroying schools in Gaza.
And that has to be recognized.
The Arab world did recognize the trauma of October 7th.
Israel has yet to recognize the trauma that has been brought on
Palestinians day in, day out.
Every day, hundreds of Palestinians are being killed.
In Gaza and, by the way, on the West Bank,
do you know that even before October 7th,
2023 was the bloodiest year for Palestinians in over decades?
That's before October 7th.
The number of Palestinians killed on the West Bank is the
highest in decades.
That is the policy of this Israeli government, which again,
has ministers that openly called for the killing and
destruction of Palestinians.
So that's the thing.
So to move forward, I think we just need, this war has to
stop and the world has to stand up to its responsibility.
There should be consequences.
And again, to your question about reforms and others, the whole world
now is saying the only path forward is a two-state solution.
The whole world is saying humanitarian aid should be allowed
into Gaza.
The whole world is saying civilians should be protected,
and Israel has done none of that.
And ask any Israeli, Israelis will only tell you what they don't want.
Tell us what you want.
Do you want the two-state solution or not?
So I think that's how we frame the conversation to move forward.
Again, the war has to end and we need to start,
implement, a plan that would realize a Palestinian state and that would
only will be the only guarantee of a future of peace for Palestinians
and for Israel.
Unfortunately, we have to leave it there.
And apologies to everybody that we've we've run over time.
That concludes our panel.
Thank you so much.